Sunday, January 9, 2011

The Arizona Shootings, and Those Yet To Come

While not everything is yet clear about the Arizona shootings that left Arizona Congresswoman Giffords fighting for her life and six dead, including a child, a fairly clear picture of shooter Jared Lee Loughner has emerged. He's a nut. And a hard core leftist. But the shooting itself, other than the pathetic attempt to paint Loughner, a mentally ill and leftist nutcase, as a Tea Partier, by the media and Democrats (but I repeat myself), really is not that important. Because its not part of the violence and shootings to come. No, that wave of murder, assassinations, and violence is coming from Mexico. Courtesy of the Gulf Cartel, and the Zetas. Violence in Mexico does not stay in Mexico. This has happened before. In Columbus, New Mexico, in 1916. It will happen again. A lone nut can by killing or wounding important people (Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands, JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King, George Wallace) change the course of politics by removing important decision makers from influence. But the broader effect is when this happens society wide, down to the level of ordinary women protesting their daughter's murder (and the release of the killer).

There are killings, yet to come. Done not by nutty leftists, but hardened Mexican professional assassins.

Updated!



Loughner's classmates describe him as Left Wing Pothead


That Loughner is a nut is obvious. As is his fairly hard-left politics, as much as can be discerned through the fog of his mental illness. Zombie from Pajamas Media has a copy of Loughner's videos, including statements that (Christian) religion amounts to government mind-control, his favorite books (including To Kill A Mockingbird, the Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and the Phantom Toll Booth), and videos of himself burning a flag in the desert. His favorite band was Anti-Flag, a group that makes Rage Against the Machine look like Pat Boone crossed with Ted Nugent:

Anti-Flag is a punk rock band from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in the United States, formed in 1988, and known for its outspoken political views. Much of the band’s lyrics have focused on fervent anti-war activism, criticism of United States foreign policy, corporatism, U.S. wealth distribution, and various sociopolitical sentiments. … Anti-Flag is known also for their advocacy of progressive political action groups such as Greenpeace and Amnesty International.



The most recent protest they performed at was outside the Republican National Convention in 2008; they were supposed to be the last band to play but they had been touring with Rage Against The Machine and had decided it would be a good idea to get them involved since they had a long history of getting involved in related events. When officials found out they were going to perform, they shut down the stage’s power and the band performed two songs using megaphones.

They also regularly support political organisations which include:

Democracy Now!, the latest headlines from which can be found on the band’s homepage.

PETA, who were one of the sponsors of their 2010 ‘The Economy Sucks Let’s Party’ tour.

Amnesty International, to which the band donated money from the sale of The People and the Gun, have supported for a long time and who were one of the sponsors of their 2010 ‘The Economy Sucks Let’s Party Tour’.

Greenpeace, with whom the band worked in order to persuade world leaders to attend the climate conference in Copenhagen and who were one of the sponsors of their ‘The Economy Sucks Let’s Party Tour’.

Useless, whom they sold screen-printed limited-edition T-shirts with to raise money The Kandorwahun project, while raising awareness and visibility for Useless.

The band’s song “Die for your government” was sung by anti-war protesters who briefly blocked a road to prevent US troops from deploying to Iraq in August 2010. They have appeared in the 2010 music documentary Sounds Like A Revolution, about new protest music in America.


The man was a hard-core leftist. If anything, Loughner can be lumped in with other "anti-Racists" like the man who shot Pim Fortuyn:

"Facing a raucous court on the first day of his murder trial, he said his goal was to stop Mr. Fortuyn exploiting Muslims as 'scapegoats' and targeting "the weak parts of society to score points" to try to gain political power. He said: 'I confess to the shooting. He was an ever growing danger who would affect many people in society. I saw it as a danger. I hoped that I could solve it myself.'"


It is highly likely that Congresswoman Giffords was targeted because she supported Arizona's anti-illegal Immigration Law. And criticized Obama's attack on the law. Loughner and Volkert van der Graaf (the killer of Fortuyn) seem almost like identical twins. Motivated by hard left ideology, in their mental illness.

Loughner, of course, is different than the Virginia Tech shooter (Seung-Hui Cho), or the Columbine killers, or George Sodini. Men who were mentally ill, socially isolated, sexually frustrated, or in the case of the Columbine killers, "folie a deux." These men, unlike Oswald, or Sirhan Sirhan, or Loughner, or van der Graaf, had no real ideology except general insanity. They targeted merely ordinary people, often those they had only a casual contact with. Mark David Chapman (the killer of John Lennon), John Hinckley Junior, David Berkowitz, would also fall into this category: men gripped in the throes of mental illness who kill or attempt to kill out of psychotic delusions. Hinckley sought to re-enact Taxi Driver to impress (not so closeted) Jodie Foster. Berkowitz, the Son of Sam, thought his neighbor's labrador was giving him orders to kill. Chapman thought killing Lennon would bring him fame. A different sort of crazy than the ideologically motivated Loughner, Oswald, and Sirhan Sirhan.

But for all the fuss, and media frenzy trying to make Sarah Palin "guilty" (of the actions of a Left Wing Lunatic) or the Tea Party (Congresswoman Giffords father blamed the Tea Party), the shootings, tragic as they are, remain at best a sideshow to the coming slaughter.

Because the killings in Mexico are unlikely to stay there. They haven't before. Police in Mexico have found 15 bodies, 14 decapitated, in the resort town of Acapuluco. The killings were attributed to the Sinaloa cartel. Other places in Mexico have become ghost towns, as real life emulates the movies "Yojimbo," or "High Plains Drifter," or "Last Man Standing," and ordinary people flee towns fought over by rival cartels. Cuidad Juarez has seen most of its middle class flee (to Texas or Mexico City) as cartels kidnap and randomly kill even the middle (and now working) classes.

The LA Times has a collection of drug war deaths and violence and the details are horrific and shocking: seventy-two Central American immigrants in Mexico murdered, among them pregnant women, by cartel members (Zetas). Press coverage stopped, by means of killing reporters and editors. Mayors and Police and Army commanders routinely assassinated. Clergy assassinated. The combined death toll since 2007 over 30,000. Only 2% of all murders even resulting in an arrest, let alone a conviction. Massive corruption on a mind-boggling scale of the police, and army. Mexicans returning to Mexico for the Holidays escorted by the Army in daylight only to prevent their being kidnapped, robbed, and sometimes killed (these returnees are not rich, having at best only a few thousand dollars of available cash for ransom).

The drug war in Mexico, between rival cartels and the government, has gone insane. When working class men like taxi drivers are kidnapped for ransom, the purpose is not money. Since they have none, and the split between kidnappers makes the whole exercise pointless, less than working at a minimum wage job even in Mexico. No, the point is violence for the sake of violence, like killing helpless Central American immigrants, even pregnant women.

It is NOT about the money. Rather, the blood-lust. Which has gripped Mexico like it has gripped much of West Africa. General Butt Naked of Liberia would be at home with Mexico's cartels. Killing for the sake of killing is bad for business. Capone at his worst moderated his murders to maximize his cash. The thugs and criminals in Mexico cannot even do that much. The mass killings, on a wide-spread scale throughout Mexican society and geography (no place is immune not even pricey resorts like Acapulco) are not even for political effect, like the killings done by Pablo Escobar's forces, designed to force the Columbian Government into an accommodation and power sharing with the drug kingpin. Because no one person controls the killing. It is truly a war of all against all.

And this is why the shootings of Arizona Congresswoman Giffords, and others, as tragic as it may be, are in the end unimportant. Another lone nut, will kill again, out of inchoate craziness, or craziness directed by some ideology (often, Leftist) however loosely formed. The desire by the ACLU, and the Left, to prevent the civil liberties of crazy people from being infringed, and the failure to build large capacity mental hospitals, guarantees that crazy folks who are exhibiting dangerous lunacy will not be committed. Loughner was like Cho, and the Columbine kids, and Sodini, obviously crazy. Yet his civil liberties outweighed the lives of others. This is a decision that the Left has imposed on society, and there remains no willingness to say, cut welfare and health spending on illegal aliens to fund Mental Hospitals, let alone forcibly commit crazy people to them.

But the intermittent, spasmodic killings won't fundamentally change society.

The coming slaughter on American soil, will.

Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the US, and is the second place world kidnapping capital right behind Mexico City. The kidnappings are mostly of Mexican nationals done by cartel members. The kidnappings are likely to grow, and include American citizens (and Whites) as victims. This is inevitable. Kidnappings, murder, beheadings, these won't magically stay on the Mexican side of the border. People flow through the border, which Democrats like Keith Ellison want to be irrelvant. Cartel members know they can always flee to Mexico, and remain immune from seizure or prosecution. And sooner rather than later, they will start killing and kidnapping Americans, particularly Whites.

Since there has been no real action to deter that sort of thing. These are dangerous, often semi-literate, and killing addicted men. Sicarios often start killing at a young age (boys are seen as less of a threat, and more invisible). The 14 year old assassin who beheaded four men in Mexico, is an example. Allegedly, his sister helped him kill men for the Cartel, and torture them. The boy was born in the US, though he holds Mexican citizenship. Movies and TV shows depict assassins as clever, ruthless, sexy, highly educated men: George Clooney in "the American" or Jason Statham in the remake of "the Mechanic." The ugly reality is killing addicted, semi-literate, thugs, who enjoy the killing, operate in a society of general lawlessness, and cannot operate in productive, middle class society.

Mexico has been, in NFL parlance, "exposed" as a failed society, and a failed people. Like Muslim societies, it has far too many people, and no ability whatsoever to compete with Chinese manufacturing. Which can produce superior goods at even cheaper labor prices than either Mexican or Muslim societies can, or could conceivably ever produce, no matter how much investment in education and capital equipment takes place. Thus, the giant sucking sound Ross Perot referred to in the debates with then Vice President Al Gore, were from China (taking US manufacturing jobs) not Mexico. Which in turn has no way of becoming anything other than a violent, all against all thug-ridden hellhole. Mexico is not even Russia, held together by an oligopoly of former KGB thugs, and extensive patronage. Thugs in Mexico increasingly answer to no one but themselves. There is no "boss" to make a deal with, and the cartel leaders themselves are being killed off by rivals, or the government and the killing on a society wide scale only spreads.

Because the killing is the point. The sicarios don't make that much money. The killing of human beings is ugly and disgusting, to most people, and it takes considerable training to get most ordinary human beings to do it. The natural sympathy, empathy, and cooperation that human beings need to survive (a man alone is easy prey for animals or others, a man with a group can dominate the environment) is very hard to overcome. Yet once done, it is almost impossible to re-instate. West Africa after the violent, ethnically and gang-related wars that racked Liberia, Ivory Coast, the Congo, and more, remains mostly a hell hole of random violence and no real ability to do much of anything, productive. West Africa cannot even produce textiles, leveraging its cheap and abundant labor.

And there is all that spoils, inside America, just beckoning. For hardened men, who enjoy killing, to deal out more of it. Often on a racial basis (it is easier for humans to kill and torture those who do not look much like them it seems). The killing in Mexico is proceeding on a staggering scale. The government is unable to stop it (largely because there is no one or several bosses to kill to stop it, unlike say Pablo Escobar in Columbia). Simple human nature ensures that the killings will start in the US.

And once they start, they will proceed like wildfire. It won't be a limited incursion like Pancho Villa's. It will instead be the fairly spontaneous actions of thousands or tens of thousands of Mexican sicarios, often themselves shockingly young and ill-educated, heedless of consequences. Which in turn will spark a demand to do something, anything, to stop middle and working class Americans (principally, Whites but also Black and Hispanics as well) from being slaughtered, kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded, as ordinary Mexicans are now enduring.

Where that demand will lead: giant Berlin Wall style fences, military intervention into Mexico, ruling Mexico as a protectorate, sponsoring a US backed military government, or something else, is another story. But clearly, the killing will only stop when the killers are pretty much killed. An offer of a middle class job he can't handle won't stop a 14 year old already addicted to killing.

Which in turn makes the coming slaughter on American soil, not a lone nutcase, the real story.

43 comments:

Anonymous said...

Haha, you constantly redefine stream of consciousness. Just when I think you're talking about domestic terrorism I'm sniffing coke in the movie traffic.

Anonymous said...

How is he a leftist? He wants to revert to the gold standard and lists Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books. Not saying he's a right-winger, but your attempt to paint a schizo as belonging to a particular political wing (after accusing the media of doing the same thing) is simply retarded.

But that's a given on Whiskey's blog I suppose.

De Golfo said...

How do explain El Paso, almost entirely Mexican and a stones throw from Juarez, being one of the safest cities in America?

Or the fact that Sailer favorite Razib Khan (a fervent HBD believer) and the American Conservative magazine found, after extensive and thorough data analysis, that Latino crime rates aren't any higher than those of Whites.

Whiskey said...

The guy is a leftist because:

1. He burned the American Flag in one of his videos.
2. His favorite band is "Anti-Flag" which has constant anti-American stuff.
3. The Congresswoman was known for her border enforcement and pro-SB 1070 views.

That pretty much makes him a leftist.

Latino crime rates are indeed, higher than Whites. For example: the Redlands shootings of two Black youths by Latino Gang members. The DOJ Statistical collection suggests that Latinos in the US ARE more likely than Whites (less likely than Blacks) to engage in Crime. Black-Hispanic-White-Asian gang membership also paints that picture.

BUT, even assuming all that data is false, the Cartel killers and kidnappers are already here. Right now, they are victimizing Mexicans living in Phoenix. Eventually they will branch out. This is what killers who know nothing else do. This map from the LAT shows violent and property crime. Note the violent areas near downtown LA: home to MS-13 (the Westlake Park area).

Whiskey said...

Correction, the area in question is now called Pico-Union. My bad.

Whiskey said...

For those wanting more data on Loughner, apparently he found Abortion "funny" ... Hotair story Here.

De Golfo said...

The American Conservative study proving Hispanic and white crime rates are on the same level:

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/

namae nanka said...

"lists Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books"

the most right-wing book ever, eh?

JHB said...

But for all the fuss, and media frenzy trying to make Sarah Palin "guilty" (of the actions of a Left Wing Lunatic) or the Tea Party (Congresswoman Giffords father blamed the Tea Party), the shootings, tragic as they are, remain at best a sideshow to the coming slaughter.

I was surprised at the speed with which my liberal (ex-)friends jumped on the "It's Sarah Palin's fault!" meme, but I was shocked at the vitriol cast my direction when I pointed out, as you do here, that the guy is and was a leftist, not a Palin supporter. (In addition to the reasons you cite above in the comments for calling him a leftist, the girl from his band identified him as left-wing before the spin controllers could reach her.)

Three of my friends, each one a friend for at least five years, all of them college-educated and middle-aged women, said some horrible, can't take it back, completely irrational things when confronted with the fact that Loughner was left-wing and they shouldn't have blamed Sarah Palin for the murders and the other shootings. The most articulate but incoherent rant was that I was a coward for raising the truth; the most frequent criticism was various forms of "You think you're right!"

What I'll take away from the shootings is the extent to which intelligent liberals self-deceive and the hatred with which they respond to facts contrary to their fantasies. Whiskey, I don't dispute that illegal border crossings will result in more shootings. My lesson learned here is borne out by the other commenters, though: it's not rocket science that border crossings by killers in drug cartels will increase US killings, but some folks, all the same, seem ostrich-headed enough to deny it.

Whiskey said...

Hitler hated Christianity, sought to supplant it with Paganism, was a vegetarian, a drug user, anti-smoking, was a "National Socialist" (the NSDAP, aka "Nazi" party was properly, "Nazional Deutsch Arbeitern Partei) so yeah, Hitler was more Left than Right. Ala "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg of National Review.

Churchill, DeGaulle, were both of the Right. Sticking to national tradition, Christianity, etc.

Elusive Wapiti said...

"How is he a leftist? He wants to revert to the gold standard and lists Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books."

What Whiskey said, plus this loon also listed the Commie Manifesto along with Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books. Now I haven't read Mein Kampf, but given that it was written by a committed leftist, I suspect it's pretty leftie too.

I am so tired of lefties in our society parroting commie talking points and painting Hitler as some kind of right-wing avatar. He wasn't, he was about as hard core left wing as one can get.

That Hitler and Stalin hated each other doesn't impress; it's like Ford hating Chevy for taking some of the heavy pickup truck market share in the US. Communism, fascism, and national socialism are peas in a pod.

Ever heard of "first brown, then red"?
-

Nullpointer said...

Rarely do I find myself in complete agreement with you, but this is one of those times.

The first thing I did when I saw the msnbc and cnn reports, was to head over to Denninger for a more truthful report.

The coming wave of violence and unrest from Mexico, plus civil unrest from nearly 20% real unemployment due to exported jobs, and all the other middle class asset stripping activities of our kleptomaniac plutocrats points towards a future I'm not keen to live in.

Maybe the elites have a long term plan for the invasion of Mexico Bay of Pigs style... who knows?

Anonymous said...

Whiskey,

How would you organize the political spectrum from left to right? What is the essence of Left and what is the essence of Right?

Where would you put a libertarian that wants to abolish the welfare state, the central bank, all preventative law including anti-discrimination laws, but also wants legalized drugs, gambling and prostitution, and also respects America's founding and is an atheist to boot? Where do you put such a person? On the Left? Right? Center?

Are you sure that the Left/Right spectrum isn't inherently flawed.

D.R.L.

P.T. Barnum said...


The drug war in Mexico, between rival cartels and the government, has gone insane. When working class men like taxi drivers are kidnapped for ransom, the purpose is not money. Since they have none, and the split between kidnappers makes the whole exercise pointless, less than working at a minimum wage job even in Mexico. No, the point is violence for the sake of violence, like killing helpless Central American immigrants, even pregnant women.

It is NOT about the money. Rather, the blood-lust.



Eventually they will branch out. This is what killers who know nothing else do.


Your dehumanization of people you view as enemies is impressively rapid and extreme.

It's surprising that people you view as less than animals fail to conform to your exacting, and never personally followed, standards of war.

The Zeta's are American Trained Death Squads. And they are following their Training.

Just cause your master's dog is off the leash doesn't absolve them of responsibility for their dogs behavior.

Anonymous said...

I am protected by Mr. Colt :-)

Lawful Neutral said...

Too funny, PTB. You complain about Whiskey's "dehumanization" of these people, then a scant few lines later you yourself refer to them as mad dogs! Pick one argument or the other.

Sgt. Joe Friday said...

DRL - You are right about the flaws inherent in using a linear left vs. right scale to ID a person's politics. A more sophisticated method involves measurements of a person's views on both personal and economic freedom using a biaxial chart, the most well known example being the Nolan chart. I suspect that most of the people reading this blog fall somewhere into the libertarian/conservative quadrant.

Whiskey said...

Anon regarding groupings. You are probably a radical outlier. There are not many who hold your position, but I would classify you as roughly conservative given your position on the Welfare state (which is at least directly opposite that of the Left, generally).

Like it or not in politics, the reality is mass equals power. This is why Third Parties in the US rarely succeed, unless like the Republicans they basically absorb into irrelevancy another party (the Whigs).

Barnum -- What else but blood lust could account for killing 72 Central American immigrants? How did killing them put money in anyone's pocket? What purpose did it serve? Or the killing of the Mother who protested her daughter's abduction, rape, and murder by a cartel member, and his subsequent release. EVEN Al Capone restricted his killing to rivals. The Zetas, the Sinaloa Cartel, the Gulf Cartel cannot even do that.

The Zetas are not run by the US, they (were) a splinter of the Mexican Commandos who worked for the Gulf Cartel and now work for themselves. When you have a 14 year old boy beheading men, on behalf of the Cartels (most assassins start in their early teens) that is monstrous dehumanizing event.

Those who kill for pleasure, not money, not power, not gain, just pleasure, are no longer functionally human. Mexico has created a whole critical mass of monsters, worse even than Pablo Escobar because he at least killed for power, he could either be surrendered to, or killed, and the killing would stop.

You've missed my point entirely. When Mexican killers abduct, torture, and murder cab drivers, it is not about money. Its about the pleasure they take in killing. And there is no leader to make deals with or kill. It is decentralized.

Polichinello said...

de Golfo:

The study shows lower crime rates per capita because it constricts the data sets of comparison to young, unskilled males. The problem is, proportionaly, the illegal population is more young and unskilled than the native population. So more illegal immigration will lead to more crime. As Sailer has noted, if I limit comparison sizes for basketball potention to similar heights, I could say Africa's pygmies would supply just as many superstar point guards as, say, New York state.

Second, a lot of the crimes committed by illegals go unreported, as they're committed against other illegals.

But even if the rates were lower, so what? You still have to deal with more criminals in absolute terms you wouldn't have had to have dealt with anyhow.

As for El Paso's low rate, it's not exactly a welcoming place for illegals to hang around. There's not a lot of work there for them. There's also a bit of lag effect. In AK, for example, Hispanic crime rates are very low, but it was similar in other areas until a second or third generation popped up, establishing gangs and crime networks.

Another factor lowering the crime rates overall is the tendency of most jurisdictions to now lock up felons for longer periods. This led Sailer to propose criminality index similar to the misery index. You measure both crime rates and imprisonment rates. Right now the crime rates are low, but our imprisonment rate is high. It's better than the reverse, but we'd prefer both numbers to be low, as it was before the country went stupid in the 70s.

Also, as the article you linked to noted, violent crime is not the only issue. I know you're responding to Whiskey, so it's not your fault that he didn't mention drunk driving issues, but it is a problem here in Houston. Whenever a drunk driving fatality occurs here (especially with hit and runs), you pretty much expect the guilty party to be an illegal.

djf said...

I agree that Al Capone restricted the violence of his gang to other rival gangsters. Pablo Escobar seems more like the Mexican drug lords however. Remember, he created a fairly large campaign of random terror against civil society in Columbia. Car bombs went off at crowded intersections, gunfights in streets killed innocent bystanders, even an airplane full of passengers was blown out of the sky, just to kill a single politician, who wasn't even on the plane. Pablo Escobar's violence got so out of hand, that he was finally brought down by the simple expedient of off duty police joined with other gangsters to assassinate anyone associated with him, legality went out the window. It was just kill him, no matter what it takes.

I suspect if anything remotely like Mexican levels of violence starts to occur in the USA (once Obama leaves office that is), there will be major crackdowns on Mexican gangs in every city in the country, with long harsh sentences in a maximum security prison handed out for just simple membership in a gang. The RICO act will be used to do this. Finally, if that doesn't work, there WILL be a Berlin-Wall type fence on the US/Mexico border from Brownsville to San Diego.

Nine-of-Diamonds said...

Whiskey, here's some VERY interesting information about Sheriff Dupnik and the shooter's prior history. Dupnik could be in serious trouble for his failure to act. We may have a Nifong situation here:

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/

ridgerunner said...

The blood lust in Mexico is nothing new. Read The General and the Jaguar by Eileen Welsome to see what sweetharts the Villistas were.

P.T. Barnum said...

Whiskey keeps it up:

Barnum -- What else but blood lust could account for killing 72 Central American immigrants? How did killing them put money in anyone's pocket? What purpose did it serve? Or the killing of the Mother who protested her daughter's abduction, rape, and murder by a cartel member, and his subsequent release. EVEN Al Capone restricted his killing to rivals. The Zetas, the Sinaloa Cartel, the Gulf Cartel cannot even do that.


So, how about those Restrepo butchers? Who ever said they have to "kill for pleasure"? The Restrepo's morons simply have no respect for the life of others they deem "sub-human". Actually, I'm pretty sure they have no respect for anyone's life. Given your raving about the Zetas, I doubt you feel any different in their situation. You are probably smart enough not to wipe out whole families from sheer moronic stupidity though.

So I guess that makes you "better" than them, eh?

Anonymous said...

Did the Greek take account of the left/right ideology of his opponent before chucking his spear at the Persian? Did he take account of the Persian's mental state? Whether or not that state was unstable? No, he just saw his racial enemy and chucked away.

Of course he's a right-winger, he's white. That's all there is to know.

Is the left wrong? No they're not. Today, your skin is your political ideology. Conservatives need to get with the times.

Jesus Christ Supercop said...

What is PTB trying to say here? That Whiskey is in the wrong for condemning Mexican drug cartels?

Anonymous said...

If someone kills 72 people in cold blood, I'm not sure that they need Whiskey's help to "dehumanize" them - they've already done that themselves. I also doubt if special American training is necessary to teach people to kill in cold blood, since they have been doing that since long before there was a United States. Mexico is slowly dissolving into chaos, there's no denying that, and it's already spreading into our country, as evidenced by the Phoenix crime rate. I am amazed that anyone could argue this.

As for Loughner, he was primarily a nut, but he was at least as leftist as he was a rightist, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, to indicate that he had any connection whatsoever with, or interest in, the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, or immigration. If leftists don't like having Loughner branded a leftist, they have to remember who started this business, way back in 1963, when a self-confessed Communist who assasinated a President was morphed into a participant in a shadowy "right-wing" plot...

Tschafer

Anonymous said...

Yeah, P.T/, here's some lines from those "Restrepo Butchers" who have no respect for human life;

"We got one male, fighting age, on top of the roof. He knows that we won’t shoot, because there are women and children there.”

An Afghan tribal elder, after the accidental killing of some Afghan civilians;
"We understand that it was a mistake, so we will forgive. The Americans are building schools and roads, and because of this, we will forgive.”

From the movie;
"The Taliban have certainly learned the value of American mistakes. Around the same time as the checkpoint shooting, coalition air strikes killed seven Afghan children at a mosque compound in the southeastern part of the country. Reaction was predictably outraged, but almost lost in the outcry was the testimony of survivors. They allegedly told coalition forces that before the air strike al-Qaeda fighters in the area—who undoubtedly knew they were going to be bombed—had beaten the children to prevent them from leaving.

“We had surveillance on the compound all day,” a nato spokesman explained. “We saw no indication there were children inside.”

"The American rules of engagement generally forbid soldiers to target a house unless someone is shooting from it, and discourage them from targeting anything if civilians are nearby."

Yep, sounds just like the Zetas.

Buffoon...

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the most succesful organization ever was the March of Dimes. They had the noble and specific goal of eliminating polio. At that point they could have declaired victory and disbanded. Rather they went into other interminable health causes and sunk into obscurity.

When I look at groups such as the SPLC or the various other anti-hate groups including the Holder's DOJ, they all have a vested interest in not declaring victory. In fact the opposite is true. Without a boogy man, they are forced to end their rent-seeking behavior and find real jobs. Many of these anti-haters are institutionalized and have an overhead that must be fed on a continous basis which means they need to constantly beat the drum to find new revenues.

P.T. Barnum said...

So, even after having watched the movie, you insist on lying about it?

They clearly bombed buildings on very little evidence. Even you admit they bombed churches and murdered children, because assaults lose people and they are cowards. Assuming there was any militants in the church at all.

But heh, you can lie. And most Americans will nod their heads.

You are an Empire, when you act, you create your own reality.

Whiskey said...

PT -- Guys in Okinawa carried flamethrowers down cliffs (average life expectancy: five minutes) hitting caves. Sometimes they'd incinerate kids and women and civilians (it made them horrified). Sometimes it would be dug in Japanese soldiers killing their buddies.

Not being Superman, they had no way of knowing who was in what cave. GIs in Europe shot up churches, and every other place sniper and arty spotters hid out for the Germans. That's war. Its ugly. As Sherman said, there is no use in reforming it, just get it over as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately we can't do that, we insist on "reforming" War, while denying that Muslims world wide want to kill us, so we will submit. As others have submitted before.

Zetas lack even the religious/conquest motivation of Muslim Jihadis. Who think Allah directly orders them to kill women, kids, non-combatants, etc. They do it (primarily to poor, working class Mexicans and Central Americans) because they LIKE IT.

Your problem is you expect America to be all powerful, all Godly, all perfect. No human being is perfect, why would any collection of them be so? The fighting American soldier and Marine does the best he can, under the circumstances. A very few don't and get punished.

This is also a Democracy. In such, our soldiers lives count for more than the enemy. Even enemy civilians. If Afghanis don't like being killed, they should not have allowed the Taliban to make war on us by having Bin Laden attack us, then provide him protection. If Iraqis did not like the War, they should have removed Saddam, who refused to abide by 17 different cease fire agreements and presented a threat to US oil interests.

Your car doesn't run on Unicorn farts. If you like driving it and all the other things that come with gas below the $5 a gallon range, that means Saddam and people like him have to.

Whiskey said...

Nine of Diamonds: Yes, I saw that thing on the Sheriff. It seems the Loughner family pulled strings to keep their son out of jail or the funny farm.

Raven said...

PT, you are a classic- really- a perfect vision. You reflect so accurately every discussion I have ever had with my leftist friends-to wit-
As soon as there is a logical fallacy or dead end in your argument, you seamlessly switch the topic to some supposedly related subject- inevitably that topic casts the USA in a bad light, and you misdirect the conversation, forcing your opponent into a defense of an subject unrelated to the first. Bravo!
So to paraphrase your, and every other leftist's position-

#1 The USA is evil and has never done anything right .
32., the corollary - the USA or citizens thereof have no right to ever protest actions by another until they can demonstrate their own perfection-(like the left).
Simple really.

PS -I have a little shrine in my home to the left- it is a nice stainless steel and bronze unicorn with a lovely patina, with a nice stuffed "Roswell alien" puppet riding it. At first it was a lark, now I keep it up to remind me of the intellectual powers of the left.

Anonymous said...

A more sophisticated method involves measurements of a person's views on both personal and economic freedom using a biaxial chart, the most well known example being the Nolan chart.

Yes, I was thinking of the Nolan chart when I asked Whiskey my question. But by the standards of the Nolan Chart, which I like, Whiskey is the flip side of a Leftist as are pretty much all the PaleoCons. The ideal would be the Laisez-faire liberals or minarchist libertarians. That is not what the Paleo Right stands for.

Take this discussion of Mexican gangs. One of the major factors involved here is drug prohibition. It is also one of the major contributors to another Paleo concern namely black crime. Yet, I could hold my breath before I hear a Whiskey or a Larry Auster or a Dennis Mangan ever argue for eliminating the victimless crime laws.

The most obvious of solutions goes completely ignored. Yes, the Left is evil, but of what use the Conservatives? Its a flawed movement and in the end powerless to stop the Left.

D.R.L.

Nine-of-Diamonds said...

"Loughner, of course, is different than the Virginia Tech shooter (Seung-Hui Cho), or the Columbine killers, or George Sodini. Men who were mentally ill, socially isolated, sexually frustrated..."

Actually, sexual frustration may have played a key role in this whole thing. As soon as I saw his mugshot I suspected that he was socially awkward; the kind of man who would strike young women as a "creeper":

"Accused Shooter Wrote on Gaming Site of His Job Woes, Rejection by Women"


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703791904576075851892478080.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

40 or 50 years ago Loughner would have probably been happily married at his age and able to support a family on one income. Like many twentysomething males of this century, he seems to be an underachiever with no purpose. Bouncing from a no-name punk band (failed attempt to appeal to girls, maybe?) to a meaningless degree at some backwater college. Highly unlikely to have the income and charisma to attract a reasonably good-looking partner. He ended up frustrated by women's sexual access and sense of purpose; thus his bitter comments about women liking rape. Kind of like Seng Hui Cho lambasting his white female classmates as "whores".

P.T. Barnum said...


Guys in Okinawa carried flamethrowers down cliffs (average life expectancy: five minutes) hitting caves. Sometimes they'd incinerate kids and women and civilians (it made them horrified). Sometimes it would be dug in Japanese soldiers killing their buddies.


It's sad they didn't have nukes then. Could have just gone straight to the mass murder of about two hundred thousand civilians.

You do know why Okinawa was attacked, right?

Cause our bomber pilots bombing civilian targets of a defeated and crippled nation were occasionally being shot down after their civilian killing bombing runs. Taking Okinawa helped America kill civilians more efficiently.

Of course, since America was planning to nuke them I have no idea why the bombings were necessary at all.


#1 The USA is evil and has never done anything right .
32., the corollary - the USA or citizens thereof have no right to ever protest actions by another until they can demonstrate their own perfection-(like the left).
Simple really.


Look it is a Conservative twit. "Perfection"? How about the fact that America has for the last hundred years demonstrated a complete disregard for civilian casualties. Whining about "women and children killed" from the nation who incinerated Dresden and is the only nation to use a nuclear weapon period.

Your absolute hypocrisy is what I'm pointing out. Raven. We all know, everyone here, that you wouldn't blink if a latino, arab, or african family had to be wiped out to benefit the US. Any other claim is simply idiotic.

Again, that Raven actually defends the retards in Restrepo shows he is both evil AND stupid. Very, very stupid.

Nine-of-Diamonds said...

Wasn't it the real Barnum who said "A sucker is born every minute?"

Look how he seamlessly evades the issue with his whiny little rant, proving Raven's point about selective concern over "atrocities".

In leftyland, the value of an individual's life declines as it becomes more difficult to attribute his suffering to American "imperialism" (does this primate even know what that word means? Or "hypocrisy"?)

"Whining about "women and children killed" from the nation who incinerated Dresden"

All you non-mouth breathers out there, please go to wiki, etc & research which nation produced the Avro Lancaster bomber. The aircraft that dropped virtually all of the tonnage to hit Dresden (by the time the small 8th AF bomber flight got there, the city was already in ashes). Yeah, Arthur "Bomber" Harris was a major "Yank", that's for sure.

P.T. Barnum said...


Look how he seamlessly evades the issue with his whiny little rant, proving Raven's point about selective concern over "atrocities".


Two hundred thousand civilians killed is now a pointless whine! Two hundred thousand!


In leftyland, the value of an individual's life declines as it becomes more difficult to attribute his suffering to American "imperialism" (does this primate even know what that word means? Or "hypocrisy"?)


Yes. Hypocrisy means, and this is the Merriam-Webster definition:
"To be Nine-Of-Diamonds". To actually compare 72 immigrant civilians with 200,000 Japanese civilians.


All you non-mouth breathers out there, please go to wiki, etc & research which nation produced the Avro Lancaster bomber. The aircraft that dropped virtually all of the tonnage to hit Dresden (by the time the small 8th AF bomber flight got there, the city was already in ashes). Yeah, Arthur "Bomber" Harris was a major "Yank", that's for sure.


So, those American's had no say in what them English were doing eh?

And today you farm out torture.

Yeah, I got it. Clean as driven snow. But SO MUCH DUMBER than fifty years ago. So very, very much dumber.

Nine-of-Diamonds said...

Two hundred thousand civilians killed is now a pointless whine! Two hundred thousand!

Exactly. If it had been 200 million, that would have been cool with me, too. Deep down I don't care that much about German civilians. Nobody on this blog does, least of all Barnum (although he/she/it finds their deaths politically expedient). For all the babble about "humanity" and the greater good , few if any people are capable of any real affection for non-family members & peers.

Since we sorted them out in '45, the Germans haven't started any business they can't finish. Works for me-lol. Getting Lefty knuckle draggers like Barnum in a tizzy is a sweet fringe benefit, too.

Anonymous said...

Near the end of WW2 my father was finishing his training as a tail gunner for a B-29. They were going to ship him off to the Pacific to take place in the bombing raids on Japan. He was made active duty August 15, 1945.

Raven said...

PT now sees I am very very stupid, and a hypocrite and apparently a heartless racist. And I do not care about civilian casualties. This is the loving voice of the left.

This is a curious turn of events, as I cannot see, reading my posts, where I actually said any of these things. My entire post concerned the evasiveness and misdirection in your method of argument.

Apparently, PT, you are not replying to me at all, but to a construct you are carrying around in your brain, the "evil conservative" construct. No need to actually listen to another, just trot out the construct and imagine what it would say. This is a very good way to avoid having to actually engage, but there is a term for people who have arguments with themselves.

But thank you for illustrating my original point so effectively.

Mil-Tech Bard said...

PT Barnum,

The historical response to suicidal resistance & terrorism has been the genocide of the populations engaging in it.

Okinawa was the culmination of a year's worth of suicidal resistance on the part of the Japanese.

Nation-States cannot play by the rules of individuals. Especially when they are dealing with enemy cultures/peoples that have gone psychotic and want to kill them.

The firebombing and nuking of Japanese cities plus the Russian invasion of Manchuria were necessary preconditions in order for the Japanese Emperor to enforce surrender on the Imperial Japanese Military.

The firebombing of German cities by the UK's Air Marshal "Bomber" Harris and the US Army Air Corp, plus the death of two million German refugees fleeing the Russian Army in the winter of 1945 were necessary for pacifism to take root in modern Germany.

Coherent and cohesive cultures like Germany and Japan's in WW2 did not require more than 10% of their population’s dead to attain a "reality adjustment" to non-psychotic cultural norms.

Psychotic Barbarian cultures require you to kill at least half of the population to get the survivors attention.

Example: The Hashshashin cult -- the Assassins -- that the Mongols destroyed.

And some Psychotic Barbarian cultures -- death cults -- require complete extermination by their neighbors, Example see: the Indian Thuggee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

Mexico is -- as Whiskey pointed out -- adopting psychotic cultural norms and it is no where near as cohesive a culture as either Germany or Japan.

There are huge implications in that fact, given the population monitoring and control technologies the US Military has created in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Anonymous said...

Very good & civil analysis, thank you Whiskey. I have been away from my 1STDV blogs for awhile due to computer changes but found my way back through following a City Journal piece by Kay S. Hymowitz titled 'Sarah Palin and the Battle for Feminism', with a followup on Paul Elam writing about Hanna Rosin’s video on the “End of Men”. I am always impressed by sites like Whiskey's Place where the discussion does not devolve into refutation of the outlier commenter such as PT Barnum, allowing PTB to continue thus a good demonstration of a frightening irrational mindset ....regards to all.

Doreen said...

Really effective info, thanks so much for the post.