Sunday, October 10, 2010

The Duke F List and the Dog in the Night-Time

In the short story "Silver Blaze" from "the Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes," the famous dialog between Holmes and Inspector Gregory of Scotland Yard occurs:

Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Holmes: "That was the curious incident."

Doyle's insight was that what does not happen, that by all rights should happen, tells us more, at times, than anything else. So that is with the strange case of the Duke University F-List, compiled by one Karen F. Owen, the brunette on the left in the picture above. [Whiskeys-Place has no intention of running afoul of language filters, hence the sad euphemism. While presumably all readers here are adults, and not offended by Anglo-Saxonisms, language filters are. Hence the sad, admittedly pathetic euphemisms which we beg our readers to forgive in the interests of not running afoul of automated filtering systems.]

For those not in the know, the Duke University F-List is a mock senior thesis in Powerpoint form compiled by one Duke University co-ed, Karen F. Owen, the Powerpoint slides may be found here. The co-ed in question, e-mailed the mock presentation (which she lavished some considerable time) to a number of close friends, who naturally posted it on the internet in various places where it went viral. Various commenters have hit the obvious: the wisdom of e-mailing private information in the internet age, violation of privacy (for the 13 men Owens had sex with). The dog not doing anything in the night-time is of course, any discussion on the wisdom of that amount of partners for a young woman over four years, and the larger social impact if this behavior is indeed representative of most young women in college today. And it is this non-reaction and what it tells us about our society today that is most important about this otherwise boring story.

Those seeking another site with less cut-off of the powerpoint slides may find it here. Owen reportedly has offers for a book deal, and a movie, based on her experiences, while the University mulls whatever it will do. The young men in question are meanwhile dialing their lawyers. Arguing their privacy rights have been violated, and quite probably seeking compensation from any putative book or movie deal. Yes, it is always about the money. But this is not the dog in the night-time. What is the dog in the night-time, first, is the lack of shame.

It is simply inconceivable that before Sex and the City, young women would openly brag to friends, or seek book and movie deals, detailing their amorous adventures. That was the province of a certain class of man, one whom was often regarded as "unmanly" and slightly off, and certainly possessed of scandalous attributes rendering him perhaps exciting for dinner conversation but unsuitable for much of anything else. It is possible that the inflection point goes further back, to Monica Lewinski, and her "girl-talk" with one Linda Tripp, both asking for sympathy and bragging over her relationship with father-figure and uber-powerful Bill Clinton. Or the relationship between the late Chandra Levy, and the former Congressman Gary Condit. But the cultural impact of Sex and the City cannot be denied. With re-runs at 3:30, on TBS, a whole generation of middle school girls have run home to watch it, with Samantha the favorite character. Admired for her man-eating ways, rather than pitied for her fairly pathetic, post-Cougar behavior.

It is also a significant point that this male behavior, bragging to friends over conquests, has now become acceptable among young college attending women. This is a major change in behavior, gone un-remarked. It is significant in that it removes a powerful incentive (not to appear "White Trash" aka downwardly mobile) among one's peers by adopting lower-class standards of sexuality. It was a major character point of "My Name Is Earl," that his former girlfriend played by Jamie Pressly was in fact, possessed of the same male instinct to maximize partners and brag upon it, that traditionally adolescent boys have exhibited. Thus allowing the audience to mock the "White Trash" (translation: working class White) characters that make up "My Name is Earl." Which might as well have been: "A Show for SWPL to Laugh at Lower Class Whites."

The success of the West has been on "soft" social controls over male and female behavior, particularly on sex and mate selection, to form solid, upwardly mobile, middle-class families. This has been far more successful than the Islamic harems and brutal restrictions on women, or the macho/ultra-feminine village peasant model of Latin America, or until recently that model in Asia. Indeed the rise of Japan, post-War, and South Korea, post-Korean War, and Taiwan, and Coastal China, and parts of Southeast Asia and parts of India, have been through the adoption, in different degrees of enthusiasm, of the "soft" model of control of both male and female behavior, to be aspiring to "upper class" models of restraint over one's own sexuality. High investment in one's mate, in education for their (fewer) children, high rates of thrift, saving, deferred consumption, pursuit of technical education, abjuring affairs, of general sobriety, have been a proven path to economic success for these societies, many of whom were traditionally impoverished, Korea and Japan (before the Meji Restoration) being two prime examples. Not the least of which is that soft controls don't require considerable social investment in a policing mechanism (like Muslim countries) and leave individuals with the maximum amount of initiative and freedom and self-interest aligned directly with that of society. Avoiding both a "tragedy of the commons" and a rigid social-police state consuming all extra resources.

Another dog in the night-time is the reaction of (the mostly female) commenters in the media.

First, we'll have a little round of applause for the girl for the following reasons: some of these dudes are pretty hot, the majority of her anecdotes are hilarious, and she's managed to have sex like Samantha Jones from Sex and the City, in a highly superficial manner that's completely devoid of emotion – we thought that was just make believe.

Many of the female commenters of course, defend the powerpoint and of course, the hook-ups themselves in scope. On, the reaction was "13 is not slutty." This itself is significant. The non-reaction shows that the key point for controlling sexuality (gender peer pressure) is now gone. Thus the soft pressure no longer exists.

This can be seen in how the illegitimacy rates have changed over time for different races, which possess greater or lesser amounts of soft pressure. As Juan Williams of NPR noted in a column in the WSJ (sadly on Father's Day), the Black rate of illegitimacy has changed from 24% in the mid-1960's, to over 90% in the urban core today, and over 70% nationwide. Among Hispanics, this rate changed from 17% in 1980, to over 50% today (to be fair this is likely a function of increased immigration from Mexico as much as anything else). Charles Murray wrote:

It comes down to this: well-educated white women in moderately affluent circumstances almost never had babies without a husband, and women from middle class homes were almost as finicky about requiring a husband. At the same time, white women with no more than a high school education in low-income households were having nearly half of their babies without a husband.

And that was in a population that had an overall illegitimacy ratio of 11 percent. Today, the illegitimacy ratio for non-Latino whites is 28 percent. How do the classes break down now? As it happens, I’ve spent the last few weeks exploring that question. I’m not done, and want to save that discussion for a formal presentation in any case, but here are some tentative estimates: The illegitimacy ratio for the white underclass is probably now in the region of 70 percent. I think that the proportion for the white working class may be above 40 percent. The white middle class is approaching 20 percent—a scarily high figure when you think about all the ways that the middle class has been the spine of the nation.

The white overclass? They’re still living in the 1950s—their ratio is probably about 4 or 5 percent tops.

Now, it is possible that if most college age girls who are utterly ordinary, as it would appear that Owen is, with an average partner rate of 3.25 per year, can form a lasting bond leading to monogamous marriage and nuclear family formation. But that would be, on average, a poor bet overall. While it is nearly impossible to predict the success or failure of any individual in the marriage market, it is fairly straightforward to predict group behavior, and indeed the whole of consumer marketing, political polling, and the business of insurance and credit markets depends on relatively accurate predictions about group behavior.

Can anyone make any accurate prediction about Owen herself? No. But relatively accurate predictions can be made, about the probable success rate of large groups of women like Owen. Which in the case of nuclear family formation, the bedrock of the West's social success, is rather depressingly small. The collapse of marriage and the nuclear family in Chav Britain, as detailed by Theodore Dalrymple, in his various books including "Life at the Bottom," is a direct result of the lack of soft, social pressures to conform to an upper class ideal of sexual restraint (regardless of the reality) as a means to upward mobility.

Widespread, successful, nuclear family formation requires widespread, monogamous relationships, among peers in attractiveness and socio-economic status. The upending the sexual marketplace provides definite advantages to the Alpha male, and to the woman of average attractiveness, but at the cost of nuclear family formation and pretty much everyone else. Attractive women, must now share regular boyfriends or husbands, with the likes of Owen, with the collapse of same-gender social shaming restricting sexual access, in general. This is seen with "Client Number 9" Eliot Spitzer (his wife Silda recently noted it was her fault he turned to prostitutes half his age because she no longer sexually satisfied him), John Edwards, Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods, Jessie James, Antonio Villaraigosa, Gavin Newsome, New York's Governor Patterson, and more. This is the "new normal" of social behavior among the upper, and now middle and lower classes.

It is worth noting that the Duke University F-List is comprised entirely of Alpha males, successful, hunky athletes, almost all of them rated as experienced with women and knowledgeable about their sexual needs and satisfying the same. For them, sexual access is a movable smorgasbord, and one also with little commitment to very transient relationships. Assuming the picture of Owen is a fair one, it is a safe assumption to label her of about average attractiveness for the average, upper to middle class college coed. But nothing of the kind of attractiveness that in a society formed around relatively strong monogamy or at least limited amounts of partners, would enable her to compete for the monogamous attentions of Alpha males with her more beautiful peers.

The current sexual marketplace dynamics, as French writer Michel Houellebecq has noted, advantages women of average attractiveness. Who can have sex with men they could not under the old system of soft social pressures to limit sex to a few partners per lifetime. This explains the extraordinary support for it, among most women. Few women have the beauty of an Elin Nordgren, or the wealth and background of a Silda Spitzer (who came from a wealthy family). Or the drive of an Elizabeth Edwards or Hillary Clinton (the latter from a family considerably more wealthy than Bill Clinton's single-mother family marked by lower class income). But all can trade sex willingly with Alpha males to "share" an Alpha male.

And as Roissy notes, five minutes of Alpha beats five years of beta.

The other losers, of course, are beta males, who fifty years ago made perfectly acceptable husbands to their peers, and now are unsuitable. Because of the newly enabled access to Alpha males. At best, women who have had a parade of Alphas, find themselves losing most attractiveness, and settle, quite deliberately, for men they have no attraction to and even less respect. The phrase Kitchen Bitch of course denoting a helpful, beta husband who does chores, the cooking, taking care of the kids. All bitterly resented by their wives who find that cheap, illegal aliens can do those chores, and prefer Alpha dominantion and excitement.

Women, contrary to all sorts of misleading social messages in the media and entertainment, do not want or need men's domestic help. Labor saving devices, and cheap illegal alien labor, make that irrelevant for middle class women. Rather, they crave the wild, sexual excitement and domination they found among Alpha males they had in their youth. The do not forgive or forget the failure of the beta men they marry, for the most part, to be the dominant Alpha man they had when they were attractive. Indeed, the very beta helpfulness and niceness (rather than cocky aloofness of an Alpha, who would NEVER help around the house) of their husbands is a bitter indictment of their own fading sexual attractiveness. No wonder they hate their husbands, their husbands are a mirror of their own sexual power fading.

While many, many factors contribute to the high divorce rate, including no-fault divorce, custody of children routinely granted to women, alimony and child support, lack of social shaming, a significant factor must be the late marriages (mid 30's) to beta males who lack the Alpha A-hole dynamic that women crave. Consider women like Owen. After a near lifetime of Alpha studs, how can she be happy with a boring, beta nice guy who's main attributes are that he mirrors her in attractiveness, is a decent and reliable provider, helps around the house, and has notably less partners than she does?

Indeed, even on campuses where men are in short supply, women choose only the top men.

Indeed, there are a fair number of Mr. Lonelyhearts on campus. “Even though there’s this huge imbalance between the sexes, it still doesn’t change the fact of guys sitting around, bemoaning their single status,” said Patrick Hooper, a Georgia senior. “It’s the same as high school, but the women are even more enchanting and beautiful.”

By all accounts, this pattern continues later in life. I.E. Houellebecq's central insight that the sexual marketplace does not function by magic, or romantic notions. Like any other marketplace, it can find equilibriums that promote massive inequality and social instability. In the case of modern Western society, most average women like Owen, having a lot of sex, with a few Alpha studs, and most boring beta providers getting priced out of the marketplace.

Nowhere is this pattern stronger, than in China. With its sex imbalance, recently noted here, millions of girls have disappeared.

By 2020 it is thought there will be 50 million men who cannot find a wife. In a culture where marriage and reproduction are considered the highest moral duties the result is a social time bomb.

Kidnapping of women as brides is already common in China's countryside. In one case last year in the northern province of Shanxi, 25 women were rescued from a village where they had been sold for £3,000 a head to men who could not find wives.

The traditional preference is for male children

Experts predict that kidnappings will rise as further generations of boys grow up to find a shortage of women.

While the driving forces behind the sex imbalance in China, and the defacto sex imbalance in the US and other Western nations (i.e. lack of soft social controls on female hypergamy, Alpha hunting to the tune of "13 is not slutty") are profoundly different, in broad strokes they have the same result.

Which is destruction of the formation of a society's ability to create and sustain wealth creation. Nothing less and more.

There is not enough wealth and control, in the most centrally planned economy, to implement the notion in Plato's Republic of the State raising children. This effort has always failed, because of scale. Raising children, and investing a vast amount of capital, in labor and time and money, including education, and formation of an optimistic, sober, restrained, and "middle class" personality requires an immense amount of resources. The overhead of an orphanage, or other state institution for raising children simply does not scale. Far too much resources are devoted to things not directly related to producing a wealth producing new citizen, and far too few resources invested, particularly in early childhood, in producing intense bonding, emotional security, and relationship/behavior role modeling. Child care is perhaps the most labor intensive function in human society. Successful citizens require almost 24/7 child care for the first 10 years of life, and considerable investment after that. This is why Plato's Republic scheme, where the state would raise children instead of the family, has always failed. Even Sparta, eventually fell, because they had few children, and many slaves, and lacked in the end enough manpower despite their martial prowess, to defend against their Greek city-state enemies. No people invested more in Plato's idea of the state raising children, and no nation fell more quickly once they lacked enough citizens to put in arms against their enemy.

Thus the future of the West, and of China, is the end of wealth creation and indeed preservation. Wealth creation on a broad, society wide scale, has only been accomplished by having a nuclear family society. Where families on their own accord, for their own interests, invest staggering sums of capital, labor, and time in producing wealth creating men and women of the next generation. This does not happen by magic. Great sweeping love affairs do not create it, nor do defacto harems of the Muslim or the old Nineteenth Century Mormon variety. The Mormon possessions of the Utah Territory were whittled down extensively, by the larger, and more energetic and monogamous populations around them. Until Brigham Young had a revelation that monogamy was now required. For entry into the Union.

Indeed, the embrace and open-ness to technological change that characterized the West, is a function of nuclear family monogamy. Other peoples often pioneered technical advances, but the West embraced them far more fully, and extended them radically. Thus China, in the Emperor driven, non-nuclear family system of Harems and Eunuchs, came up with gunpowder, the compass, printing, rockets, and many other advances, only to see them fail to advance (because of the broad social changes they bring) while the West, far less advanced initially, had a resilient base of a nuclear family, allowing it embrace the changes brought upon by technology, and indeed push those changes ever farther and faster, because the technology gave them more advantages, and indeed only increased the strength of the nuclear family which generated, with technology advantages (printing, the telegraph and telephone, radio, railways, industrial production, public education, etc.) more and more wealth for the nuclear family, and re-inforced the whole cycle of change.

What we are now witnessing, essentially, is the end of that process that began around 1000 AD and the gradual introduction of water power technology back into Europe (the Romans had it extensively), and is now coming to the end with what amounts to a single mother society.

The declining birth rate among all Western nations (and more urbanized Muslim ones such as Algeria, Iran, and Tunisia), Japan, and Coastal China, is a function of the ongoing collapse of the nuclear family and delayed marriage, and child-birth, driven by the pursuit of Alpha men by liberated women. Increasingly, particularly among working class Whites, women are choosing to have kids by themselves, as single mothers, presumably with hot Alpha men instead of boring beta providers (who they would have married in the first place if that's what they wanted). Indeed, this message is validate by Jennifer Aniston, who opined that women do not need husbands to raise kids. The proliferation of single mother by artificial insemination (Aniston's movie, Jennifer Lopez's) shows social acceptance of this behavior in fairly wide forms. At best, the West will see a lot of Bill Clinton types created. Ambitious men on the make, ruthless as they learned in early childhood to compete for a mother's affection with the man of the moment, and often abused by the latest new man in the household. Or perhaps, the female equivalent. Needless to say, this is not the type of person to create and sustain wealth on a broad scale. At worst, the example of Chav Britain looms upon us all.

Currently, Western Society is optimized for sexual access to Alpha men by ordinary women. This optimization comes naturally at the expense of forming a nuclear family society wide. Increasingly, the phenomena of "slacker dudes" who drive such movies as "Failure to Launch" are a mere expression of ordinary beta men opting out. The supply of men who can make a leap into Alpha status, by use of "Game" (ala Roissy and Neil Strauss and many other Pick Up Artist writers and instructors) is fairly limited. About the number of average men who can practice martial arts and become proficient. In Britain, Chavs did not practice "Game" and the careful opening, posturing, and Alpha male displays. They simply short-cut by brutal but effective violence, which has been successful for them in attracting women. As Dalrymple noted, even or especially his educated, professional nurses found violent men who abused them irresistible, and the boring beta guys who made good husbands, well boring. This pattern persists until menopause. Dalrymple resists this conclusion, being an old-school social conservative who puts women on a Victorian pedestal, but this is the pattern he narrates in compelling fashion.

There is probably a non-trivial segment of the beta male population who will attempt to thug it up, particularly as blue collar and indeed, white collar jobs and opportunities disappear. Thugging it up works in attracting women. And of course, thugging it up precludes by its very nature, a stable, middle class nuclear family. This is the pattern of Chav Britain. The other pattern is of course best shown by Japan's herbivore men.

Those left out in the race for Alpha, in Japan, are turning to virtual reality girlfriends. Notably, younger, more feminine anime characters that appear in Nintendo DS games, complete with virtual reality enhancements. Pathetically, men go to "romantic" hotels in honeymoon resorts to have "week-ends" with the fantasy girlfriends, including taking pictures with the anime characters digitally inserted into the scene. Called "Love Plus" no further indictment can be made or further explanation needed of Japan's plummeting birth rate. Slate has more here, and CNN here, and clearly opting out of society in general because they cannot get much out of it is the motivation.

And that social cost is huge. The West (which includes Japan) needs almost every man and woman to devote themselves (on behalf of their children) to wealth creation and preservation. Not video games or virtual reality or a closet full of shoes, or hip-trendy jobs in media and the like. America has not seen this trend to the same degree, but it exists. The metrosexual, effiminate hipster lives in America in widespread numbers. Its not just the skinny jeans, sort of gay, sort of not, type of behavior and dress that infests Generation Y men and younger ones, it is the glorification of this behavior:

A truly revolting scene, not the least of which is the effeminate hipster audience. The West's answer to Herbivore Men. Note how few men seem to have girlfriends, in the audience, the obligatory lesbian couple, and the large amount of girls alone. No Alpha, of course, would be caught dead at such an event.

But think about it. If Owen is at all average in the amount of partners per year, and the total lack of reaction to her story suggests strongly that it is, at least in respect to partner count (again, "13 is not slutty") then between 16-32, a woman like Owen would have 3.25 partners on average, or 52 by the age of 32, when she is looking for a mate. More if she husband shops later in life. The flip side of pursuit of Alphas by women at places like Duke, is the lack of any value they bring to the picture for a beta male. Increasingly, it seems (from women's complaints about this), men in their thirties find their age peers, basically worthless for marriage. IMHO this is simply because a high-partner count woman, of limited fertility and youth, with much relationship baggage, is a bad bet for marriage. Love is out of the question, even companionship would be tinged (and beta men know it) with thinly disguised contempt for lack of being Alpha.

Beta men have on their own, valid reasons to opt out of marriage as well. No one can force either sex to get married without a social police state, which tends to be very rigid, and high-cost (all available resources devoted to enforcement not wealth creation). This describes the late Roman Empire in the West, plagued by a demographic collapse and men abandoning marriage, to the point where Emperors imposed bachelor taxes.

In order for a nuclear family to function (and any hope of a replacement level birth rate), soft social pressure upon women (and men) must constrain sexual choices. In particular, it must be thought lower class, "trashy" and yes, "slutty" for women to engage in large amounts of Alpha chasing. The lack of any dogs barking in the night-time, media commenters studiously ignoring the notch count of Owen, and failing to condemn such behavior as unwise and "trashy" is a signal that the social controls which constrained that behavior are gone. As is the formation of wealth creating and preserving nuclear families. America's future, will probably include some form of virtual girlfriends for the beta males, and thugging it up, the exact proportion to be determined by chance and social pressures. This is unlikely to change, because women overwhelmingly benefit from this ability to pursue Alphas to ridiculous levels.

Owen sent her powerpoint, to her friends, not just because she found it funny, but also to brag. About the Alphas she had, and her ability to have exciting, "tempestous" sex. Western societies are now built upon optimizing the access to Alphas by women like Owen, to the exclusion of the bedrock of the society, the nuclear family. Thus, after nearly a thousand years, the technology whose embrace empowered the West finally proves its undoing. By undermining the ability to create the next generation of Westerners. This end of course extends to societies that embraced Westernization as well, including China and Japan.

That is the depressing conclusion of the Owen Duke University F-List affair.


Samson said...

Thoughtful as always, Whiskey. You raise an interesting point: in a shameless society, why has this become such a story? It's boring.

I'm thinking about that right now, and several plausible answers occur to me. More later as time allows.

IHTG said...

why has this become such a story?

A key ingredient of the slutty society is urban anonymity.
In this case, the anonymity has been violated.

knightblaster said...

I think that there's also a short-term, long-term problem here for women, in terms of how they are behaving and so on.

I think that in the long-term, chasing alpha doesn't make that many women really happy. There are quite a few women who are now entering their 40s who have basically fucked their lives up, they realize it, and they don't like it. It isn't that they can't find a guy to marry them (almost any woman can, if she calibrates her standards), but that their lifestyle has skewed their expectations and their attractiveness such that they have a diminished capacity to find happiness in a simple way. We're going to see more of that in the years ahead, I think, as the ranks if educated women swell, and the ranks of educated men continue to dwindle.

At some stage in life, the timer on the chasing alpha game runs out of sand -- for basically *all* women, other than a virtual handful of surgically altered Hollywood properties. From the short-term perspective of a 21 year old hot woman (say a very cute 6 or solid 7), it makes sense to alpha chase, just to spin the wheel on the table to see if you end up "winning" and snagging one for yourself, thereby winning the game by sidestepping the compromise between Dad and Cad. The older you get, though, the less sense that makes, because your own attraction goes down, and there is less sand left in the timer. Trouble is that by that time, if you've been truly ridden hard for years, your ability to find a normal man interesting as a mate is greatly diminished, as is your own attractiveness to a regular guy, if he ever learns of your sexual history. So the short-term thinking tends to get in the way of things when the timer starts to run out.

Sure, these women can recalibrate and "settle" for a beta, only to get bored of him and divorce him later, but most women aren't *that* happy in that situation, and statistically women are less likely than men to remarry after divorce. In other words, quite a few of these become permanent single mothers, which is a PITA in practical ways, and something that grates on many of these women in terms of bitterness.

The main source of the trouble is that by giving women complete sexual freedom at the peak of their SMV, we basically are ensuring that many of them will use that freedom to deploy sex in exchange for validation from alphas, and in so doing try to snag one for themselves. Some women give up on this early, where others are more tenacious, but ay system which permits its attractive young women to do what they like sexually will feature most of them congregating around the alpha males, forming de facto sexual harems around them. This makes women happy at *that* time, but it doesn't in the longer term. Trouble is, not too many 20 year olds are good at long-term thinking. And so our entire society is being sandbagged by enabling the short-term sexual thinking of attractive young women by promoting full-on sexual freedom -- something which, in the longer term, screws up family formation and family stability, both of which are harmful to society and ultimately self-defeating for women as well, even if they get to look back on their five minutes with Alpha when they were 21 -- most of those memories will be tinged with bitterness for having Alpha crap on them at some stage.

Anonymous said...

"The Mormon possessions of the Utah Territory were whittled down extensively, by the larger, and more energetic and monogamous populations around them."

Maybe Western world will be taken over by more energetic and monogamous populations around them.

Like white catholic traditionalists in Europe, who are monogamous, antiabortion, anticontraception, antihomosexual etc.
They are capable of wealth creating, and passing down undebted property to next generations.
And it seems they are ready to fight and win ground against 3rd world invaders.

Anyway, I can't think of any other group in Europe capable of resisting both 3rd world immigrants and modern western ideology.

Gx1080 said...

Sex and the City is ass-backwards. I remember watching an episode where the guy dumps the 20 year old off the bed for the 40 year old in a threesome. LOL.

I'd say that all the women who woke up and realized that they are used merchandise deserve what they got.


Think again. If the west falls, it will be taken by bastard-spawn, thuggish criminals and alpha harem-driven Islam.

Yes, is "if". There's hope yet.

Anonymous said...

Read this thread at a student forum. Many student girls replied to the thread (11 pages) so it makes interesting reading with some great quotes.

E.g. the disgusting female poster Jelkin...
"I don't think there's anything wrong with what this woman did, really. It was pretty tasteless to create the Powerpoint thing, but it was just a private joke between friends. The friend who broke her trust and embarrassed all those guys, not to mention the girl herself, is the one to be reviled."
... so she did nothing wrong and the only thing immoral that occurred was the friend leaking a private joke between girls on the internet.

Here's the poll (n=169):
What do you think of the Duke girl
Marriage material 8.88%
Pump and dump 91.12%

CamelCaseRob said...

I'm just not so sure women won't be happier with this new life style -- sexing guys 2 points up on the scale in their teens and twenties and having a kid or kids with them with no question of marriage, and then living with their cats until the grandchildren come along (and helping their single mother daughters raise *their* kids. (Life alone with cats is way underrated, IMO!)

Anonymous said...

Whiskey, I know you're interested (from a psychological point of view) in female Sci-Fi, so I thought you might want to review 'The Portal' by Kaitlyn O'Connor.

The summary from

Dr. Alexis Conyers is among the scientists sent from the near future to find a new home for mankind, but once her and crew-members erect the Portal, none of the colonists they're expecting arrive. When they decide to use the Portal to return to earth they discover that nearly a thousand years have passed and the world they return to as changed drastically. Mankind, except for a small enclave, has fled the Earth and humans are despised by those abandoned - the beast folk.

It's a Liger-man, Torin who rescues her form the Bear Clan, but although he knows she belongs with her own kind, he doesn't really want to let her go and Alexis finds herself torn between her love for three very different men - Lord Torin of the Lion Clan, Lord Joel of the human clan, and William Long, Joel's second in command - all Alpha males determined to claim her for themselves - - when she dosen't want to be 'owned'.

Rating: Carnal Adult situations, adult language, graphic violence, multiple sexual partners, menage a trios.

First review at goodreads says:

Good action/sci-fi adventure/romance book. The girl ends up with 3 guys (and a baby of course - this is Kaitlyn O'Connor), so don't read this is you aren't into sex scenes. I will read it again someday.

someguy said...

I think the contrast with the Duke rape case is very interesting.

1. The item no one discussed there is why would these alpha dudes want to rape some black prostitute? The same guys could do much better with a simple phone call. Of course, it is racist to make this comment. And of course it is true.

2. These two "stories" in combination now show that we (society) try to police sexuality, but instead of female sexuality it is male we rein in.

Warkis said...

professional nurses found violent men who abused them irresistible, and the boring beta guys who made good husbands, well boring. This pattern persists until menopause.

You should point out that they don't stop at menopause because they finally wise up, they stop because they have lost all their youthful looks and ability to attract Alphas.

But what's the solution? The only way the status quo could change is if you ended female financial independence and dismantled the welfare state. None of that will happen.

Anonymous said...

Oh, come on!

Telling girls they shouldn't go for Alpha Males is like telling guys they shouldn't like hot, young, slim girls.

Even Roissy himself said he couldn't tell girls not to go for what attracts them:

Novaseeker said...

I think that in the long-term, chasing alpha doesn't make that many women really happy.

Well, neither does settling for a beta at a young age and living in a resentful marriage.

Kinuachdrach said...

There is another solution for what Whiskey calls the Beta male -- which is the foreign bride. Asians of course at the top of the list of desireable mates, but also Russians, Brazilians, some East Europeans. There seem to be more & more young (and not so young) college-educated US males finding pleasant mates from elsewhere.

In a strange way, there may be a confluence between the views of young US male college students and expatriate Muslim male students: white college girls are slags; use them if you get a chance, but look outside US borders for a long-term mate.

Astute Commenters said...

"13 is not slutty." Perhaps, but there's little chance those are the only 13 men this girl has gotten off.

The standard adjustment is to multiply a woman's admitted partners by 3 to get the real number. That would result in 42 in this case. One night stands, homestands (on visits home), overnight trips, summer vacation, etc. would easily raise her sex partners to that range. Given her admitted sexual behavior, none of this is out of hand.

In today's hookup culture, multiplying by 10 to account for anal, oral, and manual sex seems even more reasonable. 130 different partners would be one every 11 days, or every two weeks. Easily feasible.

By old standards an extreme number. In today's society with no social restrictions of any kind it's believable.

Anonymous said...

Asians of course at the top of the list of desireable mates, but also Russians, Brazilians, some East Europeans.

You will be used for citizenship and money before being promptly discarded for alpha males when no longer needed.

The desire for alphas isn't limited to American women. Foreign women equally lust after alphas and will only hide it long enough to get what they need from you.

Whiskey said...

Interesting that female sci-fi is basically not about technology driving changes in society, but ... sex with different dominant guys. Sigh. Rather pathetic, if you think about it.

As for "not going for hot, slim, nubile young girls," there exists considerable social controls over male sexuality to prevent just that (at least in White middle class groups) ... girls under 18 are generally verboten by force of law and social force to older guys. And for good reason, too. Not the least of which is social stability.

There is also a trade-off between beauty and intelligence, and most men will happily trade down "some" in beauty to get a trade up in intelligence, for a serious girlfriend, one who could be a possible wife-mother, for obvious reasons.

What is missing is that the wisdom of older women, on what is smart and stupid in choosing men, has been replaced by "fabulous gay friends" in movies/TV, and sadly real life.

Whiskey said...

And yes, short of re-installing the ability to "slut-shame" women from over-pursuit of Alphas by Alpha Women (the prettiest, most charismatic) and older women (who younger ones need approval), as well as support from betas, there is no going back.

The "good news" such as it is, is that the same global system that brought prosperity now ties into global instability -- food prices surging (because grain and feed is traded globally), along with oil and commodities, the latter on news of global "quantitative easing" aka printing money to meet deficits and debase currencies. The FT had a story that global equities if based on gold or even Brazil's Real or the Aussie Dollar would look like crap. Only with the inflated dollar do they look good.

A hard, 1930's style bunch of Obama-ville's will make even a guy with a part-time job look good.

Anonymous said...

Kinuachdrach: women have already figured that out, which is why marriages to foreign women are being outlawed. This is why IMBRA was passed. Women know that they need betas as a backup plan in case they can't land the alpha (not that they actually want to be stuck in a marriage with an beta - women want to get married, not be married). With falling crime rates, there's not going to be enough exciting/criminal men to go around and the "problem" (yes, not enough exciting criminal thugs really is a problem to women) is going to get worse.

And as the anon at 7:11pm said, foreign women are indistinguishable from domestic ones anyway, a foreign woman is just as bad as a domestic one, plus the language and cultural barriers.

Then again, these marriages (foreign woman, domestic dude) have lower divorce rates, so maybe it's not that simple.

knightblaster said...

The foreign option is best pursued by expatting.

Women are basically the same everywhere -- this stuff is wired. What's different, depending on location, are the cultural norms of behavior and how these are enforced. If you import a woman from, say, Thailand, you probably have a better shot than you do with a clubgirl from Manhattan, but you're still running a substantial risk that either (1) she is using you for the VAWA residency exemption (under VAWA, she can allege abuse and have her legal status adjusted to full residency, regardless of her prior status) or (2) she will inculturate into the US sex war culture, and turn on you anyway.

The way to do that route, therefore, is to actually expat yourself to the foreign culture -- because it's the restrictions and mores of that culture which are ultimately more important. Of course, that requires more resources and more flexibility.

Well, neither does settling for a beta at a young age and living in a resentful marriage.

A false dichotomy, however. A woman can date normally (not riding the alpha carousel), marry in her late 20s, and have a good life. It's not an either/or of either (1) ride the carousel with abandon and then settle for a beta to divorce rape him and go cougar or (2) marry a sad sack beta at 21 and be resentful.

Sgt. Joe Friday said...

How long till Karen Owens is contacted by Vivid Entertainment offering her big $$$ to do a porno?

sestamibi said...

"13 is not slutty"

Does this refer to the number of partners or the age at which they begin to have them?

(Heavy sarcasm intended)

Anonymous said...

Well, neither does settling for a beta at a young age and living in a resentful marriage.

Why would betagirl be resentful of betaguy if betagirl had never had alpha (e.g. married a virgin)? she would perceive alphaguy as unattainable as betaguy would consider alphagirl.

if betagirls were as equally restricted as men alphagirl would get laid. she would not have to worry about alphaguy playing the betagirl bumper cars through his twenties and thirties.

Anonymous said...

Am I the only one surprised she has not gone after any black males?

She has tried akk the rest she should try the best!

Cowboy said...

Wow that moron with the Spaghettios was really over the top. Very sadly to me, nothing was surprising about the whole affair, too. The bigger morons where the entire audience, none of whom either stood up to say, "C'mon!", or at least laughed the "artiste" off stage. A whole lotta Kool-Aide got swilled by those idjits at some point!

There's this thing about bodily functions and women, in that women seem fascinated by them. Derision is typically reserved for the stereotype of the slavering male who hasn't gotten past 3rd grade potty humor. But I've conducted a multi-decade experiment by observing when conversations are ambushed by bodily function focus. Nearly always it's women who introduce these slants. You find an artist out there who's relating to the world through a prism of sh*t, piss, menstruation, blood, going to the bathroom, and even f--king, then I'll betcha you've got a woman or a gay man.

Worse, these types seem to delight in their shavianism and defy you to challenge it. They sort of sanctify their approach by claiming it's an outgrowth of "who they are" and therefore blessed at the alter of diverse individuality. You got a problem with The Vagina Monologues? With the she-male up there singing The Crying Game? Well, lighten up, dude, it's your internal sexism or homophobia speaking here!

This dynamic allows them to attack with intent to destroy every social norm you hold dear. And don't touch theirs!

Anonymous said...

Whiskey, I thought you might find this commercial interesting if you haven't seen it yet:

Whiskey said...

Fairly typical SWPL hierarchy, Anon. White Woman + Black Man > Loser Beta White guy.

Thanks, I'd seen that commercial, but only muted. The target audience is Beta White guys, but the ad cannot resist mocking them and showing the PC hierarchy. Including "Awkward" (i.e. the White guy is a loser for complaining about not being treated while they eat breakfast).

rightsaidfred said...

That embedded video reminds me of the saying, "it's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

Noteworthy that upper class women maintain traditional families. Steve Sailor mentioned that maybe societal decline set in when the taste makers quit venerating traditional values in their art, writings, and what was tossed out for popular consumption.

Laura said...

To the person who said that a young woman settling for a beta in her 20's is going to wind up miserable in a bad marriage, I would say in many cases you would be wrong. After a few years of alpha chasing I met my husband, a typical beta, at age 20. I've been with him ever since and we now have children to together. Every marriage has its ups and downs and sometimes I think it would be nice to have more freedom, but for the most part I am happy. Having children changes your perspective on life. I still like alpha type guys in some ways, but having a family of my own is much more fulfilling than the occasional attention I may have received from them. Chasing alphas seems a little boring to me.

helene edwards said...

The pic's a bit blurry, but it seems like she's almost homely (and her friend certainly is.) We all know that many unpretty women allow easy access to the kitty as a makeweight, against other girls' better looks. But what's really interesting to me is that she got into Duke at all. As a boomer from California, to me she looks like a junior college dolt with an SAT of about 1050. What a real, working press would do is find out if she actually scored high, or if her Dad made a large gift to the university. By the way, I once saw a graffito on a bathroom wall at Berkeley in which a woman had written, "ugly guys can be fun to have sex with, too." Which raises the question, if college women are so "sophisticated" (a point they'd insist on), how come they don't publish relative orgasmic results as between alphas and betas? Hmmmmm?

Paul said...

She wanted 15 minutes of fame-what a scuzz !

Anonymous said...

I take it you saw the headline in the British Daily Mirror: "Keith Richards mocks size of Mick Jagger's penis"

Will this start a trend of penis size becoming a non-taboo subject, just like tits? If so there could only be one reason for that. Female desire to humiliate men with any angle they can get. I mean, Mick Jagger, a hero to many men (not me though, that's for sure). There must be something about every man that could be exposed as a flaw... women want as many official flaws as possible so they can bring bring all men to their knees!

Amanda said...

I don't have time to read your entire post now, but you are quite mistaken that women did not talk about their sexual conquests in the past. My mother is 65, and her girlfriends in college and after talked about their adventures-- the difference was that they weren't open with it to strangers or to men. If there email and anonymous blogs had existed back then, there surely would have been stories like this-- both men and women like sex, and both men and women tend to sleep around in their youth and talk to their friends. Not a huge shock.

Willard Libby said...

I would like to add to the talk about alpha/beta/omega male desirability by pointing out that many Omega males are engaging in a clever self deception when they dishonesty claim women hate, hate, hate Beta males.

Women love and feel most compatible with beta males.

What the frustrated omega male is doing by claiming that women hate beta males is elevating his own status from omega to beta and then claiming he is rejected because he ,the beta male, is not an alpha male. *sigh*

True he isn't an alpha, but he isn't a beta either. Most of these males are omega to sub omega, if that's possible.

The betas are above them and they mostly have wives and girlfriends, or both, and they are just fine with it.

They don't believe all women are hypergamous whores and they aren't dreaming of finding an Eastern European supermodel girlfriend.

Nine-of-Diamonds said...

What the frustrated beta male keyboard jockey is doing by claiming that women love beta males is elevating his own status from beta to quasi-alpha and then claiming he is loved because he, the beta male, is not an alpha male.

Thank Allah for interwebz psychoanalysis. Where would humanity be without it?

Burton said...

Thank Allah for interwebz psychoanalysis. Where would humanity be without it?


Anonymous said...

13 is not slutty? Double standard between men and women?
A key that opens many locks is a valuable key, a lock that can be opened by many keys is a worthless lock.
Personally I only date women under 25 who have never been married, have no kids, and who have had few sexual partners. How do you know how many sexual partners a woman has had? Just ask them! As many have already commented on, they have no shame!

Anonymous said...

Why do you keep calling them Young women. The are women at 18. Stop keep referring to them as 'girls' too

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